Mad Science: MoP Druid Talents Experiment

Hello there readers!

As promised, I’ll release an attempt for new and reworked Druid talents.

But first I would like to congratulate Longwriter for his amazing tool to design MoP talent “grids”, as he would call them.

You should TOTALLY check it out:

I would also like to thank Lissanna for her inspiration and guidance to build this talent tree.

Go take a look so I can explain changes and news a bit.

(Note: I’ll not spoil it 100% so you can have the pleasure to look yourself. :D)

First alteration lies in Displacer Beast. Currently on Beta DB is just a bad version of Blink. I’ve drawn inspiration from the original AD&D Displacer Panther, which exact location cannot be precisely seen. So, in this version, if you use an active skill to enhance your movement speed, you will rock!

If you look closely at Wild Charge, you will see some sweetness going on. Moonkins and Resto, I’m looking at you!

Cenarion Ward was altered because it worked like Living Seed, blowing after you receive the huge strike. It now has a brand new function. I’ll admit that it might be a little bit OP, and I would love feedback on it.

Tier 3 is all that is left of our 2 CC tiers. While I’ve kept Ursol’s Vortex and Faerie Swarm, I’ve altered Mass Entanglement so it became barely useful.

The new Tier 4 is about Shapeshifting! But don’t worry, it doesn’t suck as much as Blizzard’s. There are some bold experiments there, which means feedback is more than appreciated again. HotW suffered a complete overhaul. DoC a light one, and Archdruidism is a brand new off-role performance talent. Go check them! 😀

Tier 5 is an output tier that is almost 100% new. No spoilers, go read them.

Tier 6 has SotF, our lazy output enhancer talent, FoN and Might of the Ancients. This last talent is Incarnation with a new flavor. I went extreme on Blizzcon explanation that this tier was supposed to grab one skill from each Druid spec, and Incarnation was “giving ToL for everyone”. Read the talent and you will agree with me that NOW it provides ToL for everyone.

Hope you guys like it!

– Fakegamedesigner


10 comments on “Mad Science: MoP Druid Talents Experiment

  1. Tier 5 is a bit too easily mathed out. As it stands, Malfurion’s Might is about twice as powerful as Hamuul’s Wisdom. Will of the Enclave is a bit harder to math, but it will almost definitely be weaker.

    Bear Hug is a baseline Druid ability, so it’s inclusion in Archdruidism is unnecessary

    I don’t really understand the rationale of the change to DoC. That makes it so that an uncontrollable proc controls the effectiveness of that talent. By which I mean, lets say that I start out the fight as a Boomy. On my first Starsurge cast, it procs. After 10 seconds, none of my heals will benefit from that talent.

    For the CC tier, I don’t understand why you kept Faerie Fire, while getting rid of Typhoon.

    I like the boomkin Wild Charge, but I feel the Resto one might be too powerful

    Same for Displacer Beast. Dash and Stampeding Roar become far more powerful than Survival Instincts. Work on that.

    But, overall this is definitely an improvement over the current talent calculator.

    • I’d just like to add a few more things.

      The other problem with Hamuul’s wisdom is that it doesn’t proc unless there’s constant, raid-wide damage. If you can’t barkskin on CD, Hamuul’s Wisdom falls even more behind. On an Ultraxion style fight, it should be around 6.5% damage increase. On say, Morchok, you might need to save your barkskin, and the buff may not be refreshed, resulting in more like a 2% gain.

      Malfurion’s Might is simply too good. 50% increased damage is a hell of a lot, especially compared to other executes like Merciless Killing.

      The thing that worries me about Will of the Enclave is simply how effective it could be. What we’re hearing from the beta is that eclipse cycles are short; Euphoria might not have much room to improve, especially with SOTF

      I love Archdruidism. I think it’s great for solo and BG play

      Keep up the good work!!!!

      • The way I see to fix Hamuul’s Wisdom then would be increasing the bonus, since I wouldn’t like to drop the overall design of being able to anticipate damage. Hamuul is known for his visions while meditating, I made this talent with this “looking into the future” flavor. 🙂 Plus, I could nerf Malfurion’s Might. Just not sure how hard would it need.

        I’ll take a look at Will of the Enclave. I must confess it is my least favorite design on this tree. Suggestions? Keeping the flavor that this is something learned by the collective efforts of the entire Cenarion Enclave. 🙂

        I’m glad you like Archdruidism! 😀 But as you commented, I’m sure it would have it’s uses for Solo and PvP, but I’m not too sure about PvE encounters. What do you think?

        Thanks again for the feedback! 😀


    • I’m actually glad that the math is easy enough. I know we are supposed to run away from number crunching, but I really think a second performance tier was needed. In my mind, the bigger frequency in which we could use Barkskin, hence activating Hamuul’s Wisdom, would balance the short time we burn bosses, which activates Malfurion’s Might. But again, if it is easy to analyse the numbers and see a current imbalance, it might be easy as well to adjust them to be more in pair! Thanks a LOT for this input! Do you have any suggestions of more appropriated values?

      I’ll adjust Bear Hug. I was using Blizz talent calculator to check Class Skills, and it is not updated. My bad.

      DoC was changed so the bonus wasn’t limited to your next skill, but to a 10 sec time frame. This turns off-role performance into a mini-heroism of sorts. In your example, a Starsurge proc would buff all heals you could fit in your next 10 secs. Instead of thinking the way you thought, of our regular nukes boosting an incoming heal, I think the cooler benefit would come from a boomkin casting HT on a tank or Regrowth on itself and getting a 10 sec buff to his nukes instead. You pop out, help a bit on heals, and when you go back to your role, you are compensated with a boost in your damage. Maybe DoC should include Tranquility, on a second though. What do you think about this point of view I expressed? Maybe I should make the 10 sec buff window to start counting upon going back to your main role.

      I kept Faerie Swarm because it is a slow, a different mechanic from Vortex and Roots. In my mind, Typhoon should be Moonkin-only. Moonkins currently are too gimped out of spec spells. Plus, it had too much similarity and synergy with Vortex, imo.

      I’ll take a look at Resto Wild Charge and at Displacer Beast. How do you think Resto Wild Charge could be exploited? Or even better, fixed?

      Thanks a lot for your constructive and well explained feedback! 😀

      – Fakegamedesigner

  2. Malfurion’s Might needs go to down to at most 25%. Even still, we’ll still have a very strong execute compared to other classes, an advantage that could be too powerful. Just for comparison, Merciless Combat, the Frost execute, is a 12% buff to their abilities below 35%.

    PVE would definitely not be the arena for Archdruidism, but I’m OK with that. Every one of our talents doesn’t have to be useful in all situations.

    Also, I didn’t mention this, but I also like your change to HotW. The ability to do something offspec EFFECTIVELY for 15 seconds is far more useful than be terribly mediocre at offspec for 45 seconds.

    Faerie Swarm just seems too weak. If it were, for example, a silence or stun, I’d be a lot happier. As it is, the slowing mechanic is just too weak compared to the other options.

    Firstly, try to get the wording on that clearer. Secondly, that turns DOC back into Master Shapeshifter, but with a minute ICD. Essentially, people should never be forced into offspec roles in order to play their mainspec more effectively, and a 30% buff for 10 seconds more than makes up for a 2 second Nourish cast. To be specific, you lose 1 starfire by casting Nourish instead. However, 5 starfires are buffed by 30%. That’s 150% – 100% = 50%. So, by using that talent, you gain a small, but not insignificant, amount of damage. Overlaid with procs, CD’s, and Trinkets, this grows even larger.

    Wording on Crushing Roots could be clearer. Do the trapped Mobs begin attacking as soon as it’s casted? If so, it probably won’t last nearly as long as entangling roots. What is the design idea here?

    Resto Wild Charge seems like it could be the kind of thing that every raid would need. For example, Staghelm. A resto dropping his seed at the end of a scorpion phase would be a significant advantage. Moonkin Wild Charge seems like it would become mandatory. 15% speed can’t compete with being able to cast on the move 33% of the time. I really think that Blizz did fine with this tier, and that there isn’t a huge need for change on this one.

    Finally, I really don’t understand what the design direction of Displacer Beast is relative to the other stuff in the tier. I’d say that Displacer Beast as is, but with a shorter CD and a DOT purge would be great.

  3. About DoC, isn’t it ok if we get an incentive to off-perform, once we get back to our main role? Like a compensation for the time you “lost” casting Healing Touch, for example. It has to be more effective than what you would do in your main role.

    But I see what you mean. I’ll focus on fixing this, since the other alterations you pointed seem easier to do.

    Thanks again for the feedback!

  4. i like what you’ve done btw.

    i like your tier 4..esp your version of HotW – there is something just dreamy about being able to switch to a different specialization in’s actually quite exciting, makes all the hard work of having mastered the other specs quite useful and if not, gives me quite the incentive to master the other specs. not to mention it jus tounds awseome.

    Also like your archdruidsm – which is perfect for those who wanted it as it was before. and your dream of cenarius lasting 10 secs rather than just the next spell makes a lot more sense.

    Your tier 6 is interesting, altho I would have the druid turn into a Dryad (if female), keeper of the grove (if male) instead of an Ancient of wind/lore etc – simply cos we already have 2 types of trees, Treant form and ToL form.

    Treants should be trainable i think and does that mean typhoon is trainable or does it go back to balance only and doing damage…cos balance druids really can’t lose more spells after losing Thorns, insect swarm, typhoon damage and no longer having FoN as a given. Balance druids have a knack of losing their nicest spells to all druids, it started wtih Hurricane in patch 1.8 and hasn’t stopped.

    Crushing roots is a much better idea,to be honest, jsutifies the 1 min cooldown.

    nice job

    • Hey there Starfury! I’m glad you like the suggestions! 😀

      I think the specialization swap is both the best solution and the worse thing ever. We are so specialized right now that anything but a full swap would feel meaningless. However, if we get in combat spec swap, other classes will flood WoW forums asking for it as well. I could not find another solution so far, but I’m still trying.

      Archdruidism seems much more useful for a PvP scenario than for PvE, but I’m ok with it this way.

      On Tier 6 I tried to follow what Blizz said at BlizzCon, more than Blizz itself. 🙂 They said that this tier (tier 4 on MoP Beta) was supposed to take something cool from each spec and give it to all specs: Charge for everyone, Treants for everyone and, finally, ToL for everyone. Well, ToL makes the druid channel power from Ancient forest spirits instead of our regular Animal “totems”. So this is why I made it turn all specs into trees – it is actually Tree Form for all, just like Blizz said it should be. 😉

      I’m so glad you like Crushing Roots as well. I think it might be amazing for PvP if it forces players to attack it as well, it would rock for heals and dps, but specially it would give Guardians some seconds to breathe while the enemy kills the Roots. I really think Guardians get the short end of the stick sometimes in the talent tree (not as much as moonkins but…). I wanted to do something nice for them. 🙂

      On this talent tree design, Typhoon is back to Moonkins as baseline. However, I do think that the damage component is not all that necessary. It is the most bursty skill we have while leveling, but in end game, it is there just for the knockback. I don’t mind it at all.

      About the lack of spells, I’ve suggested 2 new spells (well, one brand new and the other a rework of Starfall) plus a new mechanic for Shooting Stars! You should take a look at it. 🙂

      Thanks for the feedback!


      • I think that the 4% uptime on HotW is enough of a restraint that it won’t become completely OP. Popping out of boomy for HotW then Tranq and a Wild Growth shouldn’t be any more useful than, say, the Tier 13 Tank 4 pc’s. Being higher than the actual healers on HPS FTW. On the other hand, it’s now actually useful when you’re using it, so I love it.

        Druids don’t use any form of totem. What they’re doing is channeling the raw power of the Emerald Dream, an alternate plane that is the “blueprint” of reality. It’s basically what Azeroth would be without sentient races on it. When they shift into an animal form, that’s allowing the power of the Emerald Dream, moderated through the teachings of an ancient such as Ursoc, to overwhelm you, changing your very physical form. I’d see the Tree/Ancient of Lore forms as simply not using the ancients as moderators. I definitely like the flavor of it; I’d love to have that pure expression of Nature’s power. But on the other hand, it very slightly doesn’t make sense for Guardian/Feral. A tree using Shred? Mangle? Lacerate? Also, what would be different about these forms, specifically? Would it be the same as current Incarnation?

        On DoC: if there is a DPS incentive to perform off-role, then it is automatically mandatory. Anyone who doesn’t take it for the vast majority of fights will immediately be labeled “bad”, irregardless of it’s actual effectiveness. Furthermore, we will be balanced around the use of that DPS incentive. That is something that I do NOT WANT.

        On the “new spells” front, I agree with your evaluation of Shooting Stars. Man do I agree with that! BUT on the other hand I don’t see the need for two more nukes. I, personally, think that rotational simplicity in MoP will be a welcome breather from the current, annoying rotation. Reducing energy gains is also problematic in reducing DoT and NG uptime, so it could have unforseen effects.

  5. Hey there again, Tali! I’m glad that you think HotW would work well. But I’m still playing this out just in a platonic view of WoW, because the other classes would rage quit if we get in combat spec swap and they don’t.

    Notice that I used “totem” with quote marks. I’m well aware that we don’t use totems just like Shamans. However, they use totems to channel power from ancient spirits just like we do. They just channel power from elemental spirits, while we use animal spirits as you said. Animal Totems is the nomenclature that wowwiki and wowpedia use, I wanted to address it using terms people would find over the internet. 🙂

    I don’t think an ancient just like the ones in Darnassus would be unable to mangle or lacerate their victims. They have claw-like… things… in their… well… hands or whatever. 🙂 But answering your question, no. This talent is not the same of Incarnation. It is the same of ToL: the spells are the same, but the general output is boosted and some spells/skills behave differently (become more powerful).

    A curious thing is, I never decided if Might of the Ancients should work for ALL FORMS SIMULTANEOUSLY or just for your optimal form, like it does in Beta.

    If it affected our shapeshift buttons instead of giving us a new one, this talent could be used both for enhancing your main role AND to perform a boosted off-role for a bit. What I mean is a Balance druid could use the talent and go Tree-Bear to take some hits. I think this kind of flexibility would make the talent AMAZING.

    I agree that DoC is still problematic. I’m not sure if it should aim a compensation for off-role or a bonus to main role paid by off-performing, if that makes any sense at all. I’ll still tinker it a bit more. The problem is the aim of the talent, not the mechanics themselves. I just can’t decide, and I don’t know what Blizz wants for it either.

    The 2 new nukes address the more than undesired situation of Eclipse camping. If we can slow down the rate we move away from one eclipse, we straight benefit and we render eclipse camping virtually useless. Notice that the low energy spells are important, but the “fast paced” spells are equal or even more important for this design. With this pair of slow rate and fast rate energy gain spells, we can rush past an undesired eclipse and linger on the right one. We could leave the low energy spells just like they are now and increase the energy gain on the 2 high energy nukes. The DoTs and NG won’t be affected during eclipses and the system would still work, we would still have maneuverability to manage the eclipses.

    It is vital to notice that the design I proposed involves using Lunar JUST for single target phases and Solar for AoEs. Being able to run past Solar in while targeting and run past Lunar when AoE approaches is vital for it to work.

    Just as a final note, I don’t think the new nukes would add much complexity in the rotation (believe me, I work with learning for a living 🙂 ) since it just involves changing the pace energy is gained. It is not annoying as deciding when and if to clip DoTs, the cognitive response is fast and the effort is minimal.

    Do I want to ignore this eclipse? Use A. Do I want to stay on it as long as possible? Use B.


    Thanks a lot for the feedback!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s